Joel Osteen & Barbara Walters

I just got done watching Barbara Walters interview Joel Osteen on her 10 Most Fascinating People of 2006 (scroll to the bottom of the page). I've blogged about Osteen's gospel-less message before. After watching tonight's interview I've only grown in my assessment that Joel Osteen is a false teacher who doesn't preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Barbara Walters did an incredible job with this interview, pressing Joel on his "prosperity" teaching and quirky theology. Some highlights (lowlights) from Barbara's interview of the man she refers to as the "Christianity lite" pastor:

• When asked by Barbara for a summary of the main message he promotes at Lakewood, Osteen replied: "My message is that God is a good God, and if we all have the right attitude, he'll take us places that we've never dreamed of." (Note: God is good, but the rest of that sentence is the opposite of the gospel)
• Osteen confessed that he avoids addressing controversial issues such as abortion, gay marriage, and politics.
• When asked about his prosperity teaching Osteen replied: "I think the word rich is all relative, I think down and deep in our hearts, we believe that God does want us to live the abundant life that we can. To me, prosperity is health, good relationships … and money, of course, is part of it." (Note: that's ridiculous)

And, to shift gears from Osteen's content and talk about the man himself, I just gotta say that Osteen came off as too simley, and even a bit creepy in this interview. Anyone else catch the interview?

Comments

[Logan Mauldin]

I saw it, and blogged on it too. http://engagingculture.com/?p=155 I totally agree with you that Osteen seems so fake and just a bit creepy with his big plastered grin and squinty little eyes. I wonder if he would still be smiling if the real God treated him like Job.

[Forrest Gibb]

Yeah, I caught it. Unless he repents and starts preaching the whole truth, he won't be smiling at all 5 seconds after death.

Keep up the great work. Your blog is at the top of my list of blogs I visit every day.

Any relatives from Ohio? I know Joan Buzzard and her deceased husband's name was Charlie I think. Not the most common surname on the planet.

God bless,
Forrest

[J. Buzzard]

Thanks for the props Forrest. No, I don't know any Buzzards in Ohio. My mom's name is Joan though, but my dad is alive and well.

[Mrs. Buzzard Blog]

I watched the interview with my blogger husband, and I swear that Joel might have even said the he DOES NOT address controversial issues like homosexuality & abortion--because they are divisive. This guy is so weak, he makes me mad. His is a fraud, hiding under the mask of Christianity. Come out from hiding, stop decieving 1000s of people, and disassociate yourself with Christianity. Maybe he should check out the Self-Realization Fellowship? He might have to come to the West Coast to find one. Doubt they exist in Texas.

[EH]

Osteen!!!! Arrrrrgh! He irritates me so badly that he uses Christianity and the holy Word to draw the crowd and become rich in his motivational speech, NOT preaching the gospel! In another one of his interview (that you can hear from Matthew's blog), he said he doesn't know who goes to heaven or not. He is missing out the heart of Christian faith, that there is only ONE way to God, faith in Jesus Christ. He missed out the most crucial point in Christianity.

[Forrest Gibb]

Mr. Buzzard, Glad your Dad is alive and well. The Joan I know has got to be in her 70's or close to it. Her husband lost his right hand(can't remember how at the moment) and wore a wooden prostetic.

The most requested story was the one where her and another lady evangelist were on there way to preach a revival and they had to get gas. Now Mrs. Buzzard had never pumped gas before and she ended up wearing it. To hear her tell it will have you rolling on the floor. She lives in the Carolinas now.

She remains one of my favorite people that I ever met.

[J. Buzzard]

As we share our deep frustration and concern over Osteen's false teaching, let us be sure to also pray for Osteen and his church, praying that God might open Osteen's eyes to the gospel.

[mary]

If the Gospel is not "I came to give you live and one plentiful" If Jesus did not die to I was free in deed, free from illnes, free from seen, free from poverty, then about what gospel are you talking about?

[J. Buzzard]

Mary, thanks for your comment. The reason that I think Osteen doesn't preach the biblical gospel is because his messages emphasize what WE do to earn favor with God, not what JESUS has done to earn our favor with God.

[Jess C.]

For those that are skeptical of Pastor Osteen, I would just like to say that I attend his services and never once has he not made it clear during service (including those on TV) that you can get to Heaven other than through salvation. Just because he chooses to encourage rather than condemn doesn't make him a phony preacher. He always preaches from the Bible and makes it clear each and every time that the only way to Heaven and to have a blessed and prosperous life is through Jesus. Please don't condone a servant of God who understands that we live in a negative, low self-esteem, depressed society and so chooses to share the gospel by filling people with hope concerning the promises of God. If you really understand who you are as a child of God and how much God loves his children, shouldn't we all be smiling??

[MW]

I tend to agree with Justin on this point. I visited Joel Osteen's website. While nothing on his website disputes the basic tenants of Christianity, it appears Joel's method of delivery is to "water down” the gospel or conceal it. That's how the Mormon's reach people. The implication is that Joel is embarrassed or does not truly believe what the Bible teaches if he has to water it down. Christianity sells itself. We shouldn't "market" our beliefs to align our doctrine with 20th century society. Too often I see Christians (including myself) molding God to fit our needs or lifestyle.

[KC]

As someone who personally knows Joel and who has been connected to Lakewood Church in different capacities for 8 years, I would just like to say I am deeply saddened by some of your comments.

If you want to say Joel is light on some things or lacking in some areas, then so be it. You are certainly not being original. But to say that he is "fake" and "creepy", that he "wont be smiling after death" or that he is a "fraud" is irresponsible and completely discredits anything you say that might actually be relevant.

For those who are here for some reason other than to judge a complete stranger, I would like to say that with Joel, what you see is absolutely what you get. Anyone who actually knows him would say that he is the most genuine, sincere person they know. The same goes for his wife, Victoria, and the entire family.

As far as his messages... I think you should read Jess C.'s post. I find it to be completely accurate.

I would also like to say this to all of you who have made comments about someone you clearly know nothing about. Why don't you visit Lakewood Church? When you walk in you will be greeted and cared for like a guest in a home. And when the service is over, go out and personally meet Joel. If you are unchanged in your opinion, then leave and never come back, but try to show a little grace on your way out. Lakewood may not be right for you, but it is right for many. Don't discount the faith and new life that 1000's have found there.

Since moving into the new building, I believe over 9,000 people have dedicated their lives to Christ at Lakewood Church. That is the goal, right? To teach people that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and that through him and not our works, we are saved. If you ask me, someone who actually knows and isn't just a casual observer, Joel and the Lakewood team are definitely fulfilling that calling.

And by the way, it is not our job to show people their sins. It is our job to lead people to Christ. Once we begin to know Christ, our hearts become softened and ears open and God shows us our sins himself.

In everything I do, I ask myself, "Is this pleasing to God?" I think you might be reminded that that's a good thing to ask of ourselves as often as possible. But then again, what do I know, right? I've been being horribly deceived by a smiling, loving, positive, encouraging pastor for a long time now.

[Forrest Gibb]

KC, I have no doubt Joel is sincere. But we are supposed to aspire to be like Jesus, even more so our leaders. They are held to a higher standard by God and man. Jesus was the example of what our leaders should be striving for. He rebuked His disciples and His followers when they needed it. Jesus was not always stroking peoples self-esteem.

I agree we were a little harsh on the Joel. He seems like a decent guy. That being said, we would be remiss if we did not call out preachers who are not preaching the whole truth.

[Jess C.]

I couldn't have put it any better KC! God bless you!

And for those of you who are still in doubt about Joel Osteens intentions or style of preaching, as KC mentioned above, I encourage you all to come to a service. There is nothing fake or phony about it. That's why it is the largest church in the nation. I know so many people from different ethnicities and religious backgrounds that will actually turn on the TV program or attend a service from Lakewood because not only does Joel use the word so people of this day and age can apply it but,he also does not condemn people for the beliefs they have at the time, and instead, he teaches the truth and then encourages them to receive salvation. More people have received salvation this way because, unlike so many preachers today, Joel doesn't judge first and then hope you will listen to him. I've heard so many times that the reason people from other religious beliefs won't even take time to listen to the word is because they feel like the church is too busy judging or pointing fingers at them then embracing them for who they are and then teaching them the word. Our goal should be to bring more people to Christ, (which is what Joel has and is doing) not to sit around and criticize a preacher who has brought thousands to know Christ, just because he doesn't preach in a fashion you see fit.

[David S.]

Amen to Jess C. and KC.

Thank God for raising up a Christian leader like Joel for such a time as this.

And, thank you Joel for not letting small minded critics try to squeeze you into their little bubble.

I predict even greater things to come for you and your ministry, and God's glory shining brightly through it all!

[Todd Lubiens]

KC, (and others who attend Lakewood)
I have pondered your post since you put in in the comments portion of the blog. I really do admire that you would come to the defense of a friend. I have been in that place where a friend has been critiqued and I felt that he was being misunderstood, and I too came to my friend's defense. As you know Pastor Osteen well, I know Justin Buzzard well. He is a man who cares fervently for the purity of the message of the gospel and how that message fits in with the story of God saving a people for himself as it is told in the whole bible.

Because of family reasons this morning I did not make it to church. I saw that Pastor Osteen was on TV this morning and since your post had been on my mind I decided to see for myself what his pastoral message was all about. The sermon was something like, "Going from Believing to Expecting".

If you heard that message, and agree with it, then we have different understandings of a main message of the bible. While much of what Pastor Osteen said was good and while many of his stories and anecdotes were inspiring, I truly feel that he was promoting an idea that is not advocated in scripture.

He was totally correct that 'waiting on God' is not a passive idea or thing. I agree that we are to go about our business and to keep a positive attitude as keep busy expecting God to fulfill his promises. But here is where I have a problem with Pastor Osteen's argument, he made it clear that his understanding of how God will fulfill his promises to his people is that there will be a day-here on earth---when the promises of a dream house, a promotion at work, or other blessings will be a reality. He had story after story of fulfilled dreams and promises. But then he acted as is he was going to address the questions that were our there begging to be answered..."What if I don't get the promotion? What if I don't get married? What if I don't have a child (or as many children as) I desire? What if my family member or friend does not get better? Well, he actually addressed that question with the story of his Father not surviving his illness, yet his father kept a positive attitude the whole time and went to be with Jesus upon his death. Pastor Osteen did convey that he and his family were sad and grieved his father's death, but that they had the attitude of King David, that
"My times are in your hands" Ps 31:15. But then a crucial point came in the sermon. Pastor Osteen asked the rhetorical question..."But what if I keep a good attitude and the promises never come true?" and he followed that up with, "But what if they do come true?" He never addressed the issue. He was not pastoral to the person who is dealing with illness, or loss, or loneliness. Mostly what he did was avoid the issue except for reciting a number anecdotes of how God came through for others and also by telling the people in the pew and in the TV audience to 'keep a positive attitude, because there will be a day when God will come through'.

KC, this does not seem like it is dealing in reality or that it is in step with scripture. Imagine that the message in this sermon was being shown to a group of people who are believers, yet they are imprisoned in a country that has a dictator and they live their whole lives without any tangible blessings or a dream home, a promotion, or financial blessings. Or imagine a lady or children who have an abusive husband or father who is not a believer and they live their whole lives without any hope of things changing. There are countless stories in history where people were martyred for their belief in Jesus and his message of hope, yet they did not live in a reality that Pastor Osteen promised. They, in their lifetimes, did not see the day when God would come through and make good on the promises of blessings that Pastor Osteen charged us to keep a good attitude and look forward to the day when the blessings would be our reality.

I am not a biblical scholar, but I don't see the promise in the Bible of the promises that Pastor Osteen claimed were are to be had in the future---here on earth. The message of Jesus to the seven churches in the book of Revelation is a message of great hope.

Though we suffer hardship in this life, we have a God who added humanity to his deity and He has gone before us and because he has lived perfectly and conquered death, we, who trust in his works and not our own, we, can live a life of hope even if we are killed by those who hate Jesus. The message of Jesus that John gave to the churches in Smyrna and Thyatira were that they were to hold fast to the message of Jesus, and that even if they die, they win. Even if looks like they are defeated, or they are being deprived of the blessings that Pastor Osteen was saying are promised by God to us---even if they are defeated, they are winners and victorious if they hold fast to the message of Jesus.

On another point you made, you said that it was not our job to show others their sin. While I do think that, in most cases, there needs to be a relationship with a person to address sin in their life, I do think that it is the responsibility of a preacher to preach the whole counsel of God and that includes following Jesus' example in calling people to repentance. From what I have seen of Pastor Osteen's messages and TV appearances, he does not think that this is part of his vocation.

I think the message of the bible that I glean from reading it is different than the message that Pastor Osteen was promising his listeners. This really grieves me. When people hear a message that is packaged as hope but is not a message that is from the bible it really frustrates me. Jesus conquered death so that we can have life and life abundant even if our circumstances are not ideal in this life. We can have hope despite our circumstances and live with the attitude of hope that Pastor Osteen talked about, but yet Christians are to have that good attitude not because we will be blessed here on earth, but that we will be blessed to, one day, lay our crown of good works and blessings, what ever degree they were here on earth, down at the feet of the King of the universe who is reigning now over my circumstances, no matter what they are now. We will one day get to honor and bless Jesus for what he did for us. He took care of our only real need, changing our hearts from one which runs from him, to one which runs toward him.

I could keep typing for awhile, but I will finish up by saying that I agree with you that some of the comments in the comments thread were over the line and uncalled for. No one has the right to say what the fate of Pastor Osteen will be on that last day, when we all will gather around the throne of Judgment. But I do think that Justin has the right to state his opinion about his impression of Joel from the Barbara Walters interview. and I think that is was proper to apologize to those, like you, whom he offended.

KC, do you agree with Pastor Osteen comments in the Walters interview? If you do then we do have different views on what the Bible says.

I am truly open to your thoughts about how you would defend, from scripture, Pastor Osteen's description of the promise of fulfilled blessings in our lifetime. Also, I would be interested in how you define the gospel. What does Pastor Osteen say the gospel is? I have watched many small portions of his sermons, and today was the only one I have watched in full.

The issue for me is not if I would feel welcome at Lakewood, or if Pastor Osteen is a nice guy, but does he preach a biblical gospel? Does he promise more than the bible promises. Does his message match up with the message and life of Paul? Could Pastor Osteen use anecdotes from Paul's life in his sermon today?

The message of prosperity and blessing that Pastor Osteen (and others) said today and in other messages has always fascinated me, because it does not fit my reality. So, feel free to let me know about the biblical structure of your view.

May we all experience the peace that Christ purchased for us by his perfect life and sacrificial death. And may we look to Christ's finished work rather than our--at BEST, filthy rags--works in our quest find favor with God.
KC, I hope to hear from you soon, or see you in heaven someday...

[JZ]

Dear Todd,

How can you engage in an intelligent debate about Joel Osteen if you've only watched him once? Please!

Is he supposed to encapsulate everything YOU want to hear about God, Jesus and the "whole" Bible in 30 minutes??

Todd, do you think every pastor should fit into your own mold?

Do you believe, Todd that God gives each of us different gifts to use? My point is, if you think a pastor is going to be everything for you and what you want him to be, you're hugely misguided. Not even "Paul" could be that. And, by the way Joel isn't "Paul" nor is he Jesus.

It is quite obvious you know nothing about Joel Osteen and his message. If you are trying to stick up for your friend Buzzard, fine. But, I would highly encourage you to educate yourself on who it is you are being critical of before you embark on lengthy analysis. And, while in your research - pray that God would open your mind.

[julie]

I don't think Todd is trying to fit Osteen into some personal, created mold. It sounds to me like Todd is trying to help you see that Osteen's words and teachings do not reflect those from the Bible. Also the Bible is quite clear about the fact that there will be false teachers. Very often, in the biblical descriptions of false teachers, money is mentioned as their motivation and focus. Doesn't that hold true of Osteen? How then do you know that Osteen is not a false teacher?

[Todd Lubiens]

JZ,
As I wrote to KC. I can truly appreciate your desire to uphold your Pastor so that he gets the respect you think he deserves. I will agree that there must be great appeal and care that occurs at Lakewood on account of the size of the congregation and the passion that is shown in yours and others defense of Pastor Osteen.

As you were frustrated with me for thinking I could critique your pastor after listening to one full message, I felt frustration with you for not interacting or addressing my specific and general concerns about Pator Osteen. Your attention was directed at me, rather than my comments.

To be clear, I have seen a few interview that Pastor Osteen has done and watched portions of a few dozen of his sermons. Granted I have only watched one full sermon, but the bulk of my critique was based on that one sermon and the Walters interview.

Since Pastor Osteen is a very public figure he is open to critique. I know it is used to the degree of it being cliche, but the Bereans did get praised for thinking through the message of Paul.

So, as I said before, I am truly interested in hearing what Lakewood people say in response to my points in my earlier post related to that sermon, "From Believing to Expecting". I stick to my point that Pastor Osteen's assertions don't resonate with me as being biblical promises. Please let me know where I am wrong on my arguments and please refrain from asseriting that I am ignorant since I only watched one sermon.

As for my opinion of what a pastor should be and say. It is a calling with such a high responsibility in which a listener might only hear that one sermon in their life. And so I argue that the content should be a complete argument within each sermon. And, I think that sermon from Pastor Osteen was, yet I think it was not a clear biblical message.

[KC]

Todd - I agree that you should not have to feel personally attacked for your opinion, that is exactly what I was trying to stop with my posting. I believe you should be free to post your thoughts, I was just asking that we take care in how they are said. I think the problem is that those of us who attend Lakewood are having a hard time understanding what the problem is. Everything that you said rings true to me, but I don't see how you are describing the entirety of Joel, his sermons, or his beliefs. Well, let me correct myself. I’m sure you are describing some of them. They do tend to be very positive; I just don't think any of us see the problem with that. I've never been disillusioned enough to think that everything I pray for will happen, and when things don't go my way, I don't get mad at God or think Joel is misleading me. I’m not sure why an obviously educated observer as yourself would have such a different experience when watching, so I am trying to connect all the dots.

Lakewood is not the first church I’ve attended. I was a member of a mega church in Tulsa where the pastor said on a number of occasions, “I’m going to talk about XYZ today, and if you are going to be offended by it, then leave now.” Personally, I liked that approach and he is highly regarded in Tulsa as well as throughout the country for his children’s ministry. That said, he tried to have a TV ministry and failed at it. Why? He will tell you it is because people at home can change the channel. When someone at home is watching and doesn’t like what he is hearing because he is feeling condemned, he can simply continue surfing. I think Joel is great at what he does. He attracts listeners though TV that are in very different places in their walk with God than you and I are. There is a reason these people are at home watching every week and not at a church.

Maybe we do disagree in our thinking. I think if someone was not saved and was flipping the channels and came to hear a sermon for the first time, I would prefer it be a message that God is SO GOOD. That he meets our needs. That he is the great I AM. I would like them to hear that they can be right with God, that anything in their past can be forgiven. I would want them to hear that there is hope for them. These aren’t empty promises or
“false teachings” at all, in my opinion, but they are much more likely to influence a non-believer that a message of condemnation. At the end of every message at Lakewood, whether it’s broadcasted or not, after the invitation to accept Christ, he tells people to get in a good bible based church with-in their community. I think this the key. I think Joel’s broadcast mission is to provide the appetizer, so to speak, and get people hungry for the rest. Who knows, some of the people who attend your churches may have been led there by watching Joel. On the other hand, obviously some will hear his message week in and week out, never pray for salvation, and never change their lifestyles.

That is the first half, Joel Osteen Ministries, which encompasses the TV broadcast as well as his tour engagements. Lakewood Church is the second half. There is much more to the church service than just the 30 minutes that are broadcast on TV. The actual service can easily last 90 minutes. In addition, before and after service, there are a variety of small group bible study classes that are offered. I think the biggest reason for the difference of opinions is that those of us attending Lakewood get the whole experience. There are big differences between Lakewood and the previous church I attended, however, when it’s all said and done, I don’t feel confused or tugged between to two. They compliment each other and they both teach the same things, the delivery is just a little different.

In reading the responses by people that support Joel, do you feel we lack in our understanding? Are we saying things that seem wrong to you? I think the ‘proof is in the pudding’.

Julie - Joel’s main focus and motivation is definitely not money. Of course, there is no way to prove that. At its conception Lakewood Church was held in a barn. It has grown to this size with the help of a faithful congregation, good money managers, and most importantly God. Some people have criticized Joel for charging for tickets to hear him speak while he tours. However, they do not know the whole story. The first few engagements he did were so well received that people drove very long distances to see him only to be told they couldn’t come in. Seats were full and people were standing everywhere. At that time, all of the venues of the future engagements insisted that tickets were sold and maximum capacity limits were adhered to. After the costs to hold the event and the Ticketmaster fees, Joel is certainly not getting rich from touring.

I’ll end with this. Could Pastor Joel have used anecdotes from Paul’s life in his sermon? Of course he could have. And, in many ways, I wish he did. However, while that would have made the message more bible based, would it have made it more biblical? Was what he said misleading? Did he miss an opportunity to lead people to Christ?

[Sean Ferri]

KC, You still never dealt w/ Todd's main point. That is… Joel is actually being very insensitive (or just naive and out of touch with reality) in not dealing with the fact that very often people on this side of eternity never have "that day". It's hard to judge from my angle, but from my experience with other teachers soft on the gospel like Joel, he probably didn't go back to his point because he is not clear himself on what the bible teaches there, which is the very point Todd was trying to make. As a professing Christian and a pastor, the bible says he is to be held more accountable for what he is teaching. The fact is millions of people all around the world die with only a miserable earthly life. I can’t quote it exactly but there is a great quote that goes something like this… “It is more tragic to live a long, healthy robust life with out Jesus, than to know Jesus and to never know health or riches at all.”

If, as you said, he is taking that approach because television ministries fail when broadcasting condemning messages, that is more telling of his self seeking motives and really compounds the problem of Joel being biblically naive.

As smiley and as friendly and nice Joel seems to be, as Christians it is more important for us to be able to discern biblical doctrine than to like somebody because they seem nice. Unity in the body should come at a price, that is taking criticism from a fellow brother and still be able to pick your self up and shake hands. The criticism should be dealt out kindly and in love but dealt out none the less. I really think pastors should really leave them selves accountable with other pastors who might not exactly agree with everything they say or teach.

[Sean Ferri]

One more comment, "that day" that Joel could really have hit home on was that they could come to know the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior, regardless of weather their life improved financially, or they received better health.

[KC]

I can not comment on how people in the church and at home who are struggling through hard times feel when they listen to Joel. I do know that there are many, many people who attend who are suffering some very big problems. I also know they continue to attend. Each service Joel offers a prayer time for those having prayer requests. There are prayer partners throughout and the people come down. The number of people who come down, who believe that with God anything is possible if it is his will, is huge. Probably more people than the total congregation of some churches. So, I guess what I am saying is, not everyone at Lakewood is living a perfect life and yet they continue to attend. I understand what you are saying, Sean, but I don't think Joel's message is "If you want to live a perfect, problem free life then accept Jesus and you will get it." I think the message is, "If you want to live the best life you can live, then the first step you must take is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior."

I don't think having a goal of reaching as many people as possible through a TV ministry is self serving. I just think it is what he is here to do. I think there are different mediums through which each of us
will be led to the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is no secret that Joel doesn't have formal biblical training and he didn't go to seminary school. When his father, John, passed away he felt a strong calling to step into his shoes. Pastor John already had a fairly successful TV ministry. So, while most young pastors, who are still developing (as we all are) can not afford a TV ministry, much less an arena, Joel was put directly into that position. Sometimes God calls the most unlikely people to do the most amazing things. He is taking his place in the process of bringing people to Christ. Please don't ignore what I said about the small groups, bible studies, and new believers classes.

I think it's OK that you don't agree with him, or particularly like him. I don't think his TV ministry was made for you. His TV ministry may not be what you, as experienced bible readers, are wanting or expecting, but for some it may be just the stepping stone they need to Christianity or to get back to their walk with Jesus. As someone who is already a strong believer, you may very well appreciate Lakewood Church as a whole, regardless of how you feel about a 20 minute, media friendly portion of his message.

The only thing that matters, in my opinion, is the Joel is leading people to Christ. He is not being misleading, he does not leave Jesus out, nor does he fail to acknowledge the gospel. He is a good man, doing his part in the body of Christ. Could he have more biblical training? Does he some times say the wrong things or get interpreted the wrong way? Of course. But we all do. He doesn't claim to be perfect.

[Todd Lubiens]

KC, without a face to face or a detailed 'discussion' by email we are not going to be able to properly address our differences. The comments forum in a blog can be akin to a drive by shooting by people who think that they are right and the others are wrong and by shooting off a quick comment that they can change the hearts and minds of those they disagree with.

KC you and I will most likely disagree with each other on the content and methods of the leadership of Lakewood. I think that I have enough evidence to make a judgement on the teaching of Pastor Osteen and it does not biblically ring true. BUT, you make a great point that most of us who criticize have not been to a full service or the other ministry opportunites at Lakewood. We only speak from the varied degrees, great and small, of our exposure to Lakewood's approach to doing church. Detractors of Osteen will still think that we are right since we feel we have had enough exposure to make a proper judgment, BUT, again you and others bring up a good point that we have not experienced Lakewood as you have, and so you think we are deficient in having a proper basis for holding such strong opinions.

I bet we could argue for hours and hours if we were face to face about this topic and I would be harping on the content and you would be articulating your position.

What I praise God for is the progress that you and I has been made as far as the tone of our dialogue. It gives far more glory to God than harping on each other.

One of my biggest passions is that I get REALLY frustrated when a person adds a requirement to the free offer of the gospel, and I think that making a decision for Christ, is a work that it added, and having a positive attitude, is a work that is added, and other subtle and overt things that people add to the simple requirement of responding with the faith that is a gift from Christ by the Spirit.

As I have said many times, Lakewood's approach to church, in my opinion smacks of--things added--. I know assume you disagree with me and that is AOK.

I have tried to email you directly to continue this discussion but the email address you linked to your ientification of KC does not work. It bounces back as undeliverable. Maybe you could check it and we could e-chat more. You could try my link and I could respond.

May the Lord, by his Spirit deal with me, you and Pastor Osteen gently, and ruthlessly so that we are more conformed to the image of Christ.

[Sean Ferri]

KC, I have to say on the outset that I really enjoy reading and dialoguing with intelligent people, and people passionate for what they think and believe. If most Christians had an ounce of passion for what they really believed and even made the slightest level of effort as you have to find this blog and interject, I think more Christians would be sharpened in their faith and grow in grace and knowledge of their Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

I remember an occasion when I spoke at a College Christian Fellowship and afterwards was approached by one of my colleagues about something I said. It wasn’t easy for him to come to me and it wasn’t easy for me to receive it, but what he said was truth and I had to readdress the issue at the following weeks lecture.

As I said in my previous blog, I believe if Joel kept himself accountable with another Christian minister he would be sharpened in his faith. I do think it is a travesty that he has not continued his Christian Education at a seminary or bible college. If God called him to be my pastor, I would be calling the church to donate toward his Christian education and I would expect him to learn the method of biblical preaching and the method of studying the bible along with a general survey of the bible.

I believe this training would have helped Joel avoid the error that was originally addressed by Todd on Dec 18th. It’s not so much an error as it is an omission. Again he chose not to go back to the question of “But what if I keep a good attitude and the promises never come true” because it’s a hard pill to swallow; things don’t just get better because we stay positive. The real error, and where he really fell short as a pastor who is there to guide hurting sheep, is that there is “that day” and can be “that day” for anyone who is in Christ. That day will be “the day of the Lord” when our sinful bodies are transformed into the likeness of Christ’s immortal body. Now that would have been an encouraging message for anybody listening, and that was where Joel really fell short.

From all appearances Joel is a kind, positive and compassionate person and sincerely loves Jesus. I hear the passion in his voice when he speaks of Jesus. My biggest concern for Joel is something you made note of and that is his lack of bible knowledge. He is a very motivating person, and I have gotten a lot out of his teaching when I think about life and family and work and staying positive in those environments. I feel very encouraged after listening to some of his messages. In fact, I think you’d half to be dead as a doornail not to be. But for Christians that need to grow in their faith, they need to hear the bible preached. It goes beyond small bible studies and other church groups. If it’s not being preached from the pulpit, it will have its effect in the whole body.

As I said before I have hear several dozen messages of his. My biggest concern is that about 95% of what he discuss has very little to do with the bible. He very rarely quotes form it. He might bring up the passage he is discussing once in the beginning of the lecture and after that I won’t hear it again. He will very rarely go back to the passage he originally brought up. I challenge you to calculate the amount of time he actually spends discussing the passage being taught and how much time he spends on his anecdotes and his message, and I mean actually discussing what the passage is saying.

The biggest error that I hear from him is what has been discussed prior: there is an element or working your way into the kingdom. We cannot positively think or feel our way into the kingdom and I think that is the main plum line of his thinking and teaching. What little I have read of his book is exactly that! What he gives with the one hand by saying we have to have a relationship with Jesus he takes away with the other by saying that staying positive will bring positive results.

[KC]

Sean and Todd - I value both of your comments and they have definitely made me think. Having the opportunity to converse with you both has helped me to grow in my faith and in my love for Lakewood. I think what you two have to say is valid. I do not think everything is accurate, but I will certainly consider what you have said during future sermons. I have never gotten the impression that Joel was saying you can get into the Kingdom through good works or positive thinking. If that was his message, I agree that would be very wrong. I love you all and I would like to wish you a very merry Christmas season. By the way - Joel with be on Larry King Live Friday night. It is my prayer that he comes away from that stronger in your eyes and can someday become someone you can respect for what he is doing in our world.

[Al Moore]

I recently read the letter to the Hebrews in the New Testament. If I was going to sum up the writer's perspective, it would be "Your Best Life - Later."

[Francis]

I think the bible clearly states that "the best is yet to come". Whether it be Christ's return, heaven, or even bearing more fruit through the Lord's pruning (John 15:2). So yes, at times as a believer we don't get all the goodies right away. But to rejoice in that shows a mature follower.

[L H Moody]

May the Lord bless you all for being here, discussing and thinking on the things of God.

The problem, however, is in the teaching. The prosperity teaching. It is exactly the OPPOSITE of the teachings of Jesus. It is exactly the opposite of the way Jesus lived and the way the disciples lived. Jesus said, that the birds of the air had a place to go, but that he, the Son of Man, had no where to lay his head. In other words he didn't own a home, much less anything else. And Jesus was the EXACT representation of God the Father. (see Romans)

In other words, despite all the prosperity that some of the Patriarchs had in the old testament, Jesus came to show us ALL how to live and what the Father wanted from us until Jesus comes again. We are all supposed to live like He did. When the Holy Spirit came to the early church, one of the first things He did was move in their hearts to sell all that they had, put it in a giant pot and share it amongst each other, and with the poor, the widows and orphans.

Remember, a rich, righteous guy came to Jesus asking, "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus said follow the commandments. The man said I've done this since I was a child. Then Jesus said, there's one more thing you must do (remember... this is in order to be saved!) sell all you have and give it to the poor. The man couldn't do it and went away sad. That's when Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." (Mt 19:24, Mk 10:25 & Lk 18:25) Now of course, the disciples questioned him on this and Jesus said that what is impossible for man is possible with God. And salvation comes by faith, not works. So a good many rich people are most likely bound for the Kingdom. But a thorough search of the gospels will show that it won't be the rich (or poor) people who SOUGHT AFTER riches. (If you love your life you will lose it - life here meaning comfort and prosperity, too. -John 12:25) It's a heart thing. So basically everything that has to do with "Living Your Best Life" is opposite what is taught in the gospels of Jesus. Our focus should NEVER be getting a rich, comfortable life on earth or asking God to bless us with money and stuff. We are called to hate our lives (Jn 12:25).

So, my friends, those of you who believe in the Prosperity message are believing in something Jesus taught against. Please, please search the scriptures on this. I know you love Jesus. I know you preach the salvation message along with the prosperity message, but salvation is not just believing and saying a prayer it is "doing the will of my Father." Jesus will say to a good many people who had lovely churches and wonderful services where people came to the Lord, "Get away from me I never knew you." In fact some of them will have cast out demons in His name, setting people free from oppression and pain. But if you are seeking after or hording earthly riches, you will lose your life. (Jn 12:25) May our precious Holy Spirit enlighten us all on this point. Also, Pastor John Piper has a great sermon on this subject at his website: www.desiringgod.org.

To my friends who are standing up against the "prosperity gospel", let's not look at the outward appearances (I refer to the comments on Joel's eyes and smile). God looks at the heart, remember. And our tongues are wicked (see James). Let's reprove in love using the Word of God. Your words are not a double-edged sword, but the Word of God is (Heb 4:12). And it has the power.

God bless you Buzzard for your obedience to blog, and God bless you all.

[Alive*]

Concerning Joel Osteen or any other Pastor or Brother or Sister in Christ, I think we should judge ourselves before others. It seems to me, that's what the Bible says. We've all fallen short of His glory and as "The Body of Christ" we might just try acting like one. Heaven will never display the Baptists, Methodists, Word of Faith, Church of Christ, or any other denomination. No, heaven will one day display Christ and we in Him. Therefore, we should exhort one another and build each other up. The blood has been shed for all and all were undeserving. Therefore in closing I'll repeat the words of someone I know as "I AM". "Let him who is WITHOUT sin cast the first stone." Keep JESUS close to your heart!

[Dana Ferri]

Alive*,
I'm afraid that last quote is taken out of context. In John 8:7, Jesus was rebuking the religious leaders for wanting to put someone to death for breaking the law when their motives were ungodly. We are not fatally condemning Osteen or judging his eternal salvation, rather we are simply examining his message in light of Scripture. We are commanded to do this in the Bible! (1 Thess. 5:21)

[Alive*]

Yet, we should examine our hearts before others ministries. Not to argue, but how many has Osteen led to the Lord or contributed through his giving in other ministries vs what you and I have reached. No one knows all that a man posesses in his heart or the depths that one has sown into. Jesus said if we have an ought with our brother we need to go to him and deal with the matter at hand. The problem with people criticizing ones ministry is that the majority of those who criticize have a larger plank in their eye than the one they criticize. I'm all about the preaching of the Word, and the fact that one has nothing without our precious Lord Jesus, I'm ready for the Body to be the Body. I don't find much of that here.

[Dana Ferri]

Are you sure that you are not doing the same thing that you're accusing us of? (judging others) Your last sentence makes me wonder...

And you're making a big assumption saying that we have not examined our own hearts first. I think most of us do judge ourselves/examine our own hearts on a regular basis.

[Alive*]

We could go round and round. The point is... I believe many examine their own hearts and you yourself and I myself. I also believe Joel Osteen does as well. And should we negate the fact or take away from the many He or others have reached? Including you and I? Is He your Brother in Christ or not? How would "we" treat our blood brothers and sisters? Just type in a blog or speak directly to them. Love is they key. Whether You or Me or Joel Osteen, were all supposed to be in on this thing (Celebrating the Kingdom) together.

[Francis]

Alive,

There is a difference between criticizing others out of arrogance... and humbly rebuking false teachings.

Yes we have all fallen short of His glory. But it is possible to recognize that, and out of love for the truth point out a wolf in sheep's clothing.

If I have two brothers, and the older brother tells the younger brother whom is seeking God, that "God wants us to be rich. Seek prosperity because that is His loving will for you". I can speak out against this destructive statement while loving both brothers.

[Alive*]

False Teachings? 2 Cor. 8:9 says that JESUS became poor so that we could become rich. Ecc. 10:19 says that Money answers everything! Brother Being rich and having money isn't sin, It's loving it more than God, idolizing, and lusting after it that makes it sin. Gods will isn't one fold, there are many facets, and part of the will of the Father is for His children not to lack. " The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall NOT WANT! Wolves in sheeps clothing? Do you believe in the TRINITY, the VIRGIN BIRTH, SALVATION through Christ Jesus, Water Baptism? So does Joel Osteen. A wolf is someone who tries to steer the sheep away from Christ so they can destroy them. Now I'm not saying the central theme of the Word should be prosperity. The Bible says in Luke 12:31, "Seek FIRST His kingdom and all these things shall be added unto you." We all need to keep a central focus on the Scriptures and take the "middle ground". Once again, I believe Joel Osteen is reaching people for Christ and no other God. His message may be different than yours or mine, but were ONE BODY with different positions. Let's celebrate each other, unless another god be exalted.

[Francis]

I humbly disagree with your interpretation of the mentioned scripture.

However, if your Lord is indeed Christ, we have a lot of celebrate. I wish you the best and continued conviction and growth for us both.

-Blessings